Seeds From Roger's Atlantic Giant

Roger began growing Big Mac, but changed to Atlantic Giant from a seed catalog.

Work Planned with Roger's Line(s)

Roger has no problems with any type of disease in his Eastern Washington State location. Does that remain true in the higher humidity, lower temperature of the Ohio Valley?

Roger Describes His Line(s)

ubject: General Date: 7 Apr 99 13:51:06 -0500 From: res@colfax.com To: Indbio

Harold, Hi, Thank you for the project you are starting. This sport has been rather weak in any effort to keep track of phenotypic displays. I have been growing for over 15 yrs. My plants are selfed each year and treated with colchcine before planting. My selfs were not tightly controlled but as I am in an extremely remote location with no other growers for miles at the worst they were sibbed. My strain is very tough and resilient, does well in extreme heat. Last year was the first time I had any contact with other growers, got online. From the list I've learned that the heat is probably the reason why I've never produced any pumpkins larger than 300lbs. From one fruit last year I got white seed for the first time. If any of this will help or if you want any seeds let me know. Roger

Subject: Re: Roger: selfed & white AG Date: 7 Apr 99 22:50:12 -0500 From: res@colfax.com To: Indbio

Harold, All the seeds are white but I would call them smooth. I sent Nic some Fall Crocus so he would have a supply. My seeds seem to keep taking the treatment each year. The strain I'm using now will be the 7th generation. I run treated and untreated indoors for visual comparisons then the best looking treated go out. I traded seeds with Nic and have tried to treat some of his. Only the squash seeds will take a 24hr tratment. My seeds take 48hrs. I am starting to wonder if someone in the history of N.A. Pumpkins hasn't already done some treatments. I have to change my discription of the white seed coat. With my strongest reading glasses on they are finely wrinkled. My seeds came from catalog sales 20 yrs ago. The flowers are easy to find. If you cut back on the area and water you get small mature pumpkins with mature seed. Last year one of mine put out a 7lb fruit with 400 mature seeds on 10 ft of vine. It was only watered 12hrs every 2 wks with 100º. The one with the white seeds was a 60lb fruit on 20ft of vine. It had drip on the base all season. There were almost no laterals and none of the vines were buried. These plants were my extra that I didn't get back to all season. In the sport as a whole I think my strain would help all the others, like Kirk Momberts did. For your experiment I will leave it up to you. I have alot of seed. Let me know if you want some and where to send it. Thanks Roger

bject: Seed color Date: 10 Apr 99 07:40:06 -0500 From: dwkeel@sprint.ca To: Indbio

Harold Eddeman Ph. D.

Here is a little information about my 662 Keel '97. 662 Keel'97 (w seed) -- (F) 805.5 Eaton'96 ( T seed) X (M) 742 Glasier'96 ( Tseed) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 465 Keel'98 ( W Seed ) -- (F) 662 Keel (W Seed) X Self ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 508 Keel'98 (W seed) -- (F) 662nKeel (W seed) X (M) 500+ LA Rue'97 ( T seed ) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 555.5 Eaton'98 ( T seed ) -- (F) 662 Keel ( W seed ) X (M) 853 Eaton'97 ( T seed ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 572 Wentzell'98 (T seed ) -- (F) 662 Keel ( W seed) X (M) 606 Wentzell'97 ( W seed) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope this helps. As you can see the offspring from the same parent (662Keel) produiced white and tan seeds. I would like to here your thoughs on this. All the best Doug Keel

ubject: Re: Seeds Date: 13 Apr 99 15:53:10 -0500 From: res@colfax.com To: Indbio

Harold, It was a copy to you. Each year I have small pumpkins on the plants I don't take care of. Do you want some of the white seeds? Can I send them to the address on the web site? Roger

ubject: Seeds & Skin color Date: 13 Apr 99 17:58:02 -0500 From: res@colfax.com To: Indbio

Harold, My white seeds are only 1 generation. Last year was the first time. My pumpkins are all bright yellow while they are developing and then turn bright orange as they mature. They are very round and have heavy cantalouping. I will try right now to join the list. Roger

ubject: Re: Seeds & Skin color Date: 13 Apr 99 19:48:34 -0500 From: res@colfax.com To: Indbio

Harold, Cantalouping is like muskmelon skin and increases fruit weight above the formula based on measurements. Has anyone told you there are 2 good books for sale at Amazon.com about the sport, has lots of pictures and the history and terms. Roger

Subject: [genetics] Re: Seeds & Skin color Date: 13 Apr 99 20:22:32 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "Harold Eddleman Ph.D." <indbio@disknet.com>

Roger has joined our list; I hope he will introduce himself because he has worked longer than most on AG genetics and it sounds like he has fixed some traits in his strain(s). No surprises makes a happy breeder! He has used colchicine and I do not understand what he has accomplished, I hope he will cover that in great detail. Here is what my botany book says: The treatment of plants with colchicine, and alkaloid, has been found to induce marked changes in the chromsome of treated plants, usually increasing the number of chromosomes. Sometimes changes in various characters of plants are seen. I have used mutagenisis a great deal in microbes, but not in plants. I prefer to use mutagens which do not rearrange chromosomes by breakage. Here is a recent letter from Roger and my reply. res@colfax.com wrote: > > Harold, Cantalouping is like muskmelon skin and increases fruit weight > above the formula based on measurements. Has anyone told you there are 2 > good books for sale at Amazon.com about the sport, has lots of pictures > and the history and terms. Roger ----

bject: [genetics] Bio & Pumpkin Work Date: 13 Apr 99 23:34:04 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

Hi, I studied plant sciences at the U of Idaho and worked for 3 yrs as a Tech Aide in their weeds program. I have live in a side canyon on the Snake River in Eastern Wash. St. for the last 25 yrs. 20 yrs ago I started working with Big Max's and then moved to AG's. For over 15 yrs I have been treating with colchicine in an effort to increase the size and weight. My best effort so far is 300lb. During this time I had no contact with other growers and I did not know that high temps result in the fruit maturing sooner. My climate is one of the dryest and warmest in the northwest. When I started 50% of the plants I grew had green fruit. I have culled them out and seem to have a clean strain. Each yr I treat the seeds and then selfpollinate. Roger

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Subject: [genetics] Re: Bio & Pumpkin Work Date: 14 Apr 99 10:58:40 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

There were a couple yrs when I lost my best seed source. Once at the fair and once at a display I got talked into. In those years I went back to the seed I had used the yr before. Roger

ubject: [genetics] seeds Date: 14 Apr 99 19:51:40 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

Nic, I tried col. treatment with the 728. I have a set of seed leaves that are 3 x 7.75 in. on a treated 379.5 seedling. My tan seeds have started to germinate. I think both types were too young. I'll try the 728 again. My white seeds take a 48hr treatment, your 379.5 will only take 24hrs but look good. You need to join Harolds genetics list. Roger

ject: [genetics] Re: Colchicine treatment Date: 15 Apr 99 12:56:14 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

I put the seeds in lots of solution and once an hr shake them good. That should keep plenty of oxygen in the solution. I put them in wet paper towles after the treatment. That goes into a ziplock and on to a warm surface. Roger

Subject: [genetics] Testing Roger's Strain(s) Date: 16 Apr 99 23:58:58 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "Harold Eddleman Ph.D." <indbio@disknet.com>

Roger, Thanks for your offer of seeds some time ago. I have since been trying to figure out how much work I can do and what I can do. More recently, You said you would like to see them tested in a different climate. Our summer temperature is commonly 85 to 95 highs and 65 - 75 at night. Humidity is bad here in the Ohio Valley, but not as bad as Tenn, etc. They have disease problems we do not have. Mildew can be a real problem on pumpkins. Loss of foliage is a problem for the commercial growers some years. In my gardem total loss of foliage on some squash/pumpkin occurs in August/Sepember. Does that happen in your climate? Let's discuss here on genetics what you would like tested and what I can do. I doubt I would have time to make a contest quality effort. I probably would not know how to do that if I tried. It sounds like your lines are more homozygous than those of any other breeder. It would be interesting to see them. As I recall, you have been selfing and have not seen any white seeds. Therefore, they seem to be homozygous for tan seed color. (I am saving brown for another cucurbit really brown seed). Pumpkins are usually planted mid-May or later here. Early May can be too hot to work or cold. May 10 is the frost-free date. Also your external color is a shade of orange and may be homozygous. Therefore, if I can find something opposite to cross them with, I might be able to identify some skin color genes. What do you suggest I do with your seeds. Do you have one line or several lines that offer opportunities? I do not know what weight I should give to your use of colchicine on these lines. If it has caused chrosome rearrangements then the genetic ratios obtained may be misleading. During past decades when I asked some one about their experience with colchicine I got no answers that were definite, perhaps the effect of colchicine is variable and not a uniform doubling of chromosomes as I had supposed. -- Harold Eddleman

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tics] seeds Date: 17 Apr 99 13:20:10 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

Harold, Last year I had over 60 days of 110º with 80º-90º nights. I am wondering how my strain would hold up in other areas. Is my lack of fungus and bacterial problems due to no humidity or genetic? I have never had any leaf loss from heat, as long as the soil is kept moist. I have managed to not have to work this year and will have more time for the pumpkins. I will try to keep up with 10 plants. 2-3 plants will be from Nic's seed, the others will be from my white seeds. Basically I have one strain that has displayed different seed color, I think. There is no indication that the colchcine is doing anything other than doubling chromosomes. Roger

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genetics@onelist.com wrote: > > From: "res" <res@colfax.com> > > Harold, Last year I had over 60 days of 110º with 80º-90º nights. I am > wondering how my strain would hold up in other areas. Is my lack of fungus > and bacterial problems due to no humidity or genetic? I have never had any > leaf loss from heat, as long as the soil is kept moist. I have managed to > not have to work this year and will have more time for the pumpkins. I > will try to keep up with 10 plants. 2-3 plants will be from Nic's seed, > the others will be from my white seeds. Basically I have one strain that > has displayed different seed color, I think. There is no indication that > the colchcine is doing anything other than doubling chromosomes. Roger > I was thinking your lines were tan seeds seeds only, but above you say you are planting only white seeds. At the momonet, I do not have any pure white seeds or pure tan seeds lines, but Nic may be sending a pure white seeds line. I do not plan to use lots of space on the tan vs white genetics; bonsai sized plants can answer that and very likely AG growers already have that question answered if we only had their scattered results on one web page. However, it is possible that more than one locus is involved in seed color. There is so much difference bwtween white and tan seeds that it must involve some structure of the seed. When I get some throwaway seeds, I will try sectioning or dissecting. (I have good microscopes).

> Basically I have one strain that > has displayed different seed color, I think. What do you mean above? Most traits are modified by other genes. Thus, tan seeds in one inbred line are likely be differ in color from seeds in other lines. Often a gene has puzzling effects on "unrelated" traits. For example, in corn more than 18 different loci have alleles causing white or pale green or yellow seedlings (all these die). Half of these cause the yellow endosperm to be slightly pale and if you plant only pale yellow seeds about 90% are white seedlings. (100% would be white but the pale yellow effect is so small that the pale yellow seeds are hard to pick). Also if you take any yellow corn and self you are likely to find 1/4 of the seeds on a selfed ear are pale. A farmer would not notice this tiny difference. Therefore, variations in tan seeds color is expected. Also half of the 18 mutants affect dormancy so that when you harvest the ears many of the seeds are already growing in the ear. Genetics is so difficult and time consuming that I am not sure why I am undertaking genetics of AG. -- Harold Eddleman

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genetics@onelist.com wrote: > > From: "res" <res@colfax.com> > > Harold, I have been talking to you about the white seeds. All my seeds > have been tan until last year. I got some that were tan, tan with white > sides, and pure white. All from different plants. Nic has 100 of my white > seeds. I don't know if he has some of his own. I can send you some of > each. Roger > It is a month until the soil here is warm enough for planting and I lean in the direction of planting seedlings in the garden at age of one or two days. Since I do not plan to enter any contests, I don't need fruit by a certain date. Frost-free dates here are May 10 to mid-October. I guess I will start a webpage giving my growing weather, etc. so I don't have to tell everyone individually. Therefore, we have plenty of time to choose seeds. I do not yet know everything about the genotype of the seeds that I can probably find out. Troy Naylor plans to send me some early 1988 Dill seeds which he said produced white and orange fruit. I am not positive whether he meant white seeds in orange fruit or white skin color. I am not positive what seeds Nic is sending. I think he selected them on the basis of his best tasting large squash and best tasting moderate sized pumpkin. He may be sending 671 Welty 1986 and 231 Welty ???? <-- 917 x 1007. ------------- The ideal way to determine the genetics of a trait is to begin with homozygous parents; one pure for the dominant allele and one pure for the recessive trait. Or begin with a homozygous recessive parent and cross it with whatever you can. The latter is a testcross. The testcross gg x Gg will produce 1 gg : 1 gG and is a very good cross as it gives info in 1999. Did I understand correctly that you had a fruit with white skin (external color) and white seeds. If that fruit came from a selfed flower then it could be a very useful for studying seed color and skin color. If you had such a fruit, what sort of background do you think it had. Is it C. maxima or C. pepo? I am inclined to think most lines are a mixture of C. maxima and C. pepo--I am merely guessing. Aside from my above interests I can grow one or more of your lines just for testing their disease reaction here. Besides, testing your seeds at Palmyra you would also want them tested in other areas. Also a single year will not tell the story as diseases can cause crop failure here one year and not the next. Last year was so bad here that loss of pumpkin crops was on TV a few times. The Churchill U-Pick is a local call here and I plan to call him for details. Maybe he would buy some of your seeds, but I he mainly plants Jack-o-Lantern types.

-- Harold Eddleman

Subject: [genetics] Re: seeds Date: 19 Apr 99 11:57:18 -0500 From: genetics@onelist.com To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

Harold, No white skin, all of mine are bright orange. I don't know their genetic background. I got them almost 20 yrs ago from a catalog. Roger

You may send private e-messages to Dr. Eddleman and he will reply, usually within 24 hours.

[genetics] White seeds (genetics@onelist.com, Thu 11:09) To: Indbio

From: "res" <res@colfax.com>

Harold, Hi, We just sold 9 out of our 10 rentals so we have been trying to move out of there. Also spring cleaning on several acres here. I always read all the e-mail but don't respond unless directed to me. The seeds I used for last year were produced several years ago. It is possible that the seed which produced the white seeds was sibbed. That would give me Tan X Tan = White and explain where they came from. Roger

eeds (res@colfax.com, 04/28/99 10:16) To: Indbio

Harold, Hi, I will mail the seeds today. I'm sending all three types from last yr. The white, the tan, and some from the 7lb fruit. Roger