Looking for Seedling Mutants in
133 Rivard 1999 [selfed]

Rock supplied 26 seeds of his 133 Rivard 1999 so that I could grow some plants ahead of growing season for practice and to study for possilbe alleles. This fruit had a late frost, a difficult summer, a late flower, and an early frost so that it did not get a chance to grow very large.

Fri - April 16 - seed arrived. It was soaked 4 hours and planted

Mon - April 19 - radicle growing down from some seeds

Tue - April 20 - three goosenecks emerging from soil , two are 2/3 way out, only one seed is not showing germination. The seed which has not germinated was planted 1 inch deep and the others were 1 cm or less deep in a mix of 1 part sand : 1 part peat moss. The soil temperature varied from 77 degrees to 90 degrees F (25 to 32 C)

I germinated these in a strofoam box using 2 half-gallon milk jugs of warm water for heat. The jugs were reheated as needed (3 times per day).

To be continued

Below are messages from Rock Rivard about this seed
and other messages which may have some value in this search in a selfed progeny for recessive traits.

1999 April 6 - I placed a request on Pumpkins@mallorn.com for seeds from selfed pumpkins to examine for seedling and other mutants. My goal was to save a year by beginning with selfed seeds and if I get seeds from various lines, I have a greater chance of finding mutants.

1999 April 6 - Rock Rivard offered seeds from 133 Rivard 1999 [selfed] and provided the following information:

The female flower was not covered

About the selfed seeds. I have my seed that was selfed. It is from unknown parentage, but the pumpkin (133 Rivard 1998 UOW) was from m & f flowers on the same plant. I had only this plant in my garden. There is practically no chance that the f flower was pollinated by another plant, The only other known grower in my area is my neighboor, but I had set fruit before he even had a flower.

--Rock
jenaipas@netrover.com or AGgrower@hotmail.com

Rivard wrote:

1) Was the female flower covered to prevent insect pollen from far away by a bee? I think a bee tends to work a single kind of flower. Thus a bee might carry polled from a distant pumpkin.

Unfortunately no, but like I mentionned, the closest plant did not yet have flowers and I had already set fruit by the time the other started flowering. Having said this, it may still be possible that a bee fooled around in my plant.

2) what color are your seeds? As far as I know all the seeds in a fruit are always the same color. It that correct?

My seeds are a pale tan. They are very big compared to most seeds I obtained. Yes, all seeds color/size are the same in one given fruit (all seeds that I obtained are the same size/color/shape when they came from the same pumpkin). About quantity : My pumpkin (133lbs) had nearly 300 seeds, but I've heard of pumpkins having much more. 417 Troy 1998 produced 1076 seeds!!!!!!

3) Most useful would be traits that are harmless to plant and easy to see in a seedling. Then if we found that in a certain line heavy weight were linked to the special trait, one could plant many seeds and discard the seedlings which do not show the seedling trait.

Would make seed selecting very easy.

--Rock

Subject: Pumpkin A & B = C Date: 7 Apr 99 09:42:46 -0500 From: pumpkins@mallorn.com To: Indbio

Hi All. Someone please tell me if i'm wrong?

1) The effect of cross pollinating will be seen in the seed's of the pumpkin and not the pumpkin of that year. I know this is fact, not a theory.

2) Then if pumpkin A is the male and weigh's 500 pounds and is crossed with pumpkin B which is the female and also weigh's 500 pounds then the resulting pumpkin C is the result of the cross pollination?

3) I say NO WAY!! So when one scramble's to get the parent's of pumpkin C, they should be more interested in the female rather than the male?

4) Cross pollinating is only done to try to produce quality seed's?

Any comment's?

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Dr. Eddleman, Hi. I read your post this morning about selfed AG seeds. I have some seeds that I had selfed last year, my 301# pumpkin and my 680+ (uow) pumpkin. Both were self pollinated, which isn't such a big deal, BUT, here's what i found to be interesting: My 301 was the product of the 750 mombert. The 750 mombert's parents were : 567.5 mombert (female), and the 804 Zehr (male). My 680+ was the product of the 715 Dill. The parents were also 567.5 mombert (f) and the 804 Zehr (m). Same cross, two different growers. Both seeds (715 and 750) were white. There offspring (301 and 680+) had brown seeds. The characteristics of the 301 were: very round, and very very very orange, had ribs, but not really large or especially deep. It had smooth skin, (no cantelouping). If i remember correctly, it was pretty tall for it's size, 28" or so from the ground. The characteristics of the 680+ were high (34.5"), and round, a light almost peach color, very deep, wide ribs, and cantelouped skin. I'm not exactly sure what this all means, and i was hoping you could shed some light on this for me. Also, if either one of these seeds strikes your fancy, I'd be happy to help out and provide you with either one, or both for your research.

Anxiously awating your reply, Scott

ct: Seeds Date: 7 Apr 99 13:00:12 -0500 From: jenaipas@netrover.com To: Indbio

Hi,

Seeds are in the mail today. Here is the story behind my seeds:

The seeds were obtained from my cousin who got them from a friend of a friend of a friend...I tried tracking down the parentage with no luck, the seeds changed hands too many times.

I planted them early June and managed to save one plant (out of five). We had a late frost on June 6th. My plant was a vigourous grower and seemed very promising, compared to my neighboors' plants. Mid June, my plant was gowing great, my neighboors' plants were all weaklings. I made the big mistake then. I also had rasberries close to my pumpkin plant. My raspberry plants were infested with bugs so I sprayed them (Diazinon), just for extra protection (so I thought) I also sprayed my pumpkin plant. This nearly killed my plant. By early July it had regained its composure and was growing rapidly, even caught up and passed my neighboors' plant. I pollinated my first female on August 1, a full week ahead of my "competition". I also pollinated 2 others in the following week, but no other set fruit. The growth rate was surprising until September 13. On this day we had a plant killing frost. About 3/4 of my plant died, but I kept the pumpkin on just the same, I was still 2 weeks away from weigh-off so I decided to try to get as much as I could out of what was left of the plant. On September 23 we had another frost, this one killed what was left of the plant. I had no choice but to remove the pumpkin. Final weight : 133lbs (I won the contest between my neighboors and I)

Here are a few OTT measurements that show the quick progress :

August 17 : 73" August 25 : 120" Sept 1 : 140" Sept 13 : 170" (first frost) Oct 2 : 180" (final OTT measured at weigh-off)

All things told, I had a fruit on the plant for about 50 days. I still wonder how things might have been if I had managed to set fruit in early to mid July instead of early August. Oh well them the breaks. I will be planting my seed again this year. I want to grow my own seed every year, sort of like developing my own line. I have not yet decided wether I will cross it or self it, I may decide to do both. I will be growing 4 plants for pumpkins and maybe 1 or 2 plants for pollinators only.

Good luck with these seeds and please let me know how things turn out. Till next time... ******************************************************************** Rock

jenaipas@netrover.com or AGgrower@hotmail.com

" i souport publik edekasion ."

********************************************************************

Part 1.2

Name:

jenaipas@netrover.com wrote: > > Hi, > > Seeds are in the mail today. Here is the story behind my seeds: > > The seeds were obtained from my cousin who got them from a friend Now that I know the story, I am even more impressed with your seeds. Because of my poor results in selfed corn, I would cross pollinate for seeds to plant in 2000. I would be incline to self some of later flowers, to see what happens. From my corn experience I would expect the selfed seeds to produce some very weak plants in 2000. I guess you have read my notes that I understand sibbing is the best way to develop high quality lines to cross for hybrid vigor and big corn yields. I assume the same is true in AG. I plan to begin onlline diary pages for each of my AG projects. I will have such a page so that you and others can see what is happening. I will begin that page with your letter about your 1998 production of the plant and seeds. I am not expecting any great breakthru. I have a reputation for spotting mutants in insects. We will see if I can find any differences among the plants grown from your seeds. In addition to the chance of insect pollination, did you also use pollen from the same plant to pollinate the flow that grew 133?

-- Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab

Subject: Re: Seeds Date: 7 Apr 99 13:38:26 -0500 From: jenaipas@netrover.com To: Indbio

> In addition to the chance of insect pollination, did you also use >pollen from the same plant to pollinate the flow that grew 133?

All my females were hand pollinated by males from the same plant...I really had no choice, I had only my plant to work with.

Till next time...

Rock

Some laymen like myself feel that the success of the 567.5 may have been from some sort of Hybrid vigor. This seed was white. I have seen two white seed parents create a tan. I have seen two tan seed parents create a white and sometimes you can get some that look like a combo of both tan white. Most growers feel that seed color doesn't tell us much. But don't know for sure. If a good lineage AG seed doesn't cut it the first few attempts we are quick to look elsewhere. Mainly because you put in a great deal of work on a plant and miss its hard to risk that time following up on a good cross that has let you down. But if the ratio is as tough as it appears to hit a 700+ the 5-10 growers that do plant a certain cross and miss seems like a drop in the bucket. But this is our practice and very hard to overcome. Are we destined to only have these kind of odds or how can we improve our bets....brock

Harold Eddleman Ph.D. wrote:

> Dear Pumpkins List > (I am also sending this to my family so they can see what I am doing.) > > A book which I have mentioned to Nic is Kenneth Mather's 1938, 1951, > The measurement of Linkage in Heredity. New York: John Wiley and Sons. > It is a tiny 4 x 6.5 inches, 149 pages, book. I have had it for 40 years > and and have not read very much of it because some of it is heavy on

Harold, Hi, Thank you for the project you are starting. This sport has been rather weak in any effort to keep track of phenotypic displays. I have been growing for over 15 yrs. My plants are selfed each year and treated with colchcine before planting. My selfs were not tightly controlled but as I am in an extremely remote location with no other growers for miles at the worst they were sibbed. My strain is very tough and resilient, does well in extreme heat. Last year was the first time I had any contact with other growers, got online. From the list I've learned that the heat is probably the reason why I've never produced any pumpkins larger than 300lbs. From one fruit last year I got white seed for the first time. If any of this will help or if you want any seeds let me know. Roger

At 23:57 06/04/99 -0700, you wrote: >eatrich@magma.ca wrote: >> >> Mr Eddleman-I know about the following. >> >> In my guestimation less than 10% of Atlantic Giant seeds are white. >> > Thanks. It appears I goofed. I should have asked about the color of >the seeds in the lineage of 750 McIntyre 1998 because it is white and >must have had tan in its ancestors. I will do that soon after some more >data comes in. You are the third reply but the others only knew a couple >seeds. > On the basis of your response, it seems there is a good chance all the >seeds in the 690 Sproule 1997 pedigree will be tan. One person said he >has seen tan seeds with brown spots. He supposed the spots were >artifacts, could spotted be a genetic trait? > It was nice to hear from a famous AG grower. Do you know anything >about the original of Atlantic Giant; what is the earliest mention of >the cultivar? >-- >Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com >Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky >http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab = Agriculture, science projects >and info for amateurs, gardeners, farmers, teachers, kids >http://wwbbs.otherside.com/PUBLIC/HOMEPAGE/haroldeddleman_303/INDEX.HTM > Home Science Projects: fun for parent and child, Computer programs >http://ibl.webjump.com/ger.htm <== Simple german for beginners. >&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &&&&&&&&&&&& Mr Eddleman-if someone reported a tan seeds with brown spots,I would suggest it is just a bit of mould formed when improperly drying,or some such thing,and discount the report.

I have seen seeds from hundreds of fruit in 12 years and never such a color type.

Re Atlantic Giant origin,I have no idea.If you can research that everyone would be interested. sincerely--Al Eaton > > > >

pumpkins@mallorn.com wrote: > Eddleman's reply to Brock: Eddleman has edited Brock's words to shorten the reply > > I have always felt that AG's sibbed (not selfed) seed have at most > a 5% potential to hit 700+ lbs. Only one seed, the 567.5 Mombert, > has surpassed this and is crowned the king of AG seed for its high > rate of 700+ [progeny]. But it seems we [usually] don't see more > than 10 to 12 good 700+ pumpkins from [the 300 seeds in] a good > background AG. -- [That's] not real impressive. I have already learned an important lesson from those who have written me with themes similar to what Brock expounds above. While I have no plans to grow for records, the genetic questions are very interesting and I wish I had known in 1954 the genetic lessons this list has taught me in only a month. While I try to grow some C. pepo every year for pies, keep in mind that I have not yet grown any AG. I am only guessing but I think we should work on developing (by sibbing) some great AG germplasm lines. Those AG growers who have the space and interest can work at improving those lines and, if willing, made the seed available to others. A competitor could then choose 2 lines and cross them to obtain hybrid seed for contest plants and progeny test to pick his hybrid for his contest crop. I realize folks have already been doing this for decades. I suppose the big problem is that an AG plant takes so much space that not much culling of runts can take place. How can get more plants to select from? Most of my corn breeding was also breeding for "show" I was trying to grow beautiful flint ears demonstrating genetic traits which teachers could use to get kids interested in Mendelian Principles of Genetics. I wanted the ears to be so beautiful that the kids would remember the principles. My best success came from developing lines by sibbing and then crossing for progeny tests. I then grew the winning hybrid in quantity to sell to schools. I often got two beautiful ears per plant and sometimes 3. > One problem is there is no fixed number of good seed one could > bank on. But I sometimes feel that I should attempt to do that. > That after say 4% of good seed has been found by planting and making > it to the scales WE then take serious notice and go after that > particular cross. I have always felt that going back after the > 1% remaining good seed wasn't the best way to go. I would appreciate > your thoughts on this. I may not understand your plan. If you are saying, "Let's try to look at the methods available to develop some dependable inbred (prob by sibbing) lines, then I agree. I think you are hoping that it will be possible to develop some lines which can be crossed to produce big pumpkins every time. I am only guessing, but I think that is a good plan with lots of examples of success in other crops. As I have written before, present day strawberries have lost some of the resistance diseases and insects which are found in some wild plants. Some breeders are trying to find good wild plants to start the breeding all over again. Examples are Ag Canada at Simcoe and a station in SW Washington USA and I was doing it on a smaller scale before I learn about the larger government efforts. As we try to develop elite sibbed lines, we need to discard plants which show susceptibility to disease. We could inoculate the vines with disease and use only the survivors.

> > Some laymen like myself feel that the success of the 567.5 may have > been from some sort of Hybrid vigor. That is reasonable. Alternatively, it have also have had a lucky supply of rare, superior alleles (genes). Keep in mind that at a given locus, there might be many different alternative alleles (versions of the gene). It often seems that having two copies of the best gene at the locus is not as good as having two outstanding different alleles (hybrid). Actually, sometimes two inferior alleles complement each other somehow to be the best combination. [Such examples are known; the sickle cell form of hemoglobin may be one example. It may confer malaria survival.]

> This seed was white. [Thanks, I did not know Mombert 567.5 was white > seeded]. I have > seen two white seed parents create a tan. I have seen two tan seed > parents create a white. Sometimes you can get some that look like a > combo of both tan and white. Most growers feel that seed color > doesn't tell us much. But don't know for sure. I did not mean to imply that seed color was important. I just thought it might be an interesting mutant to study. Since the 750 McIntyre 1998 seeds are white and finely wrinkled and others say other white AG seeds are wrinkled, I wonder whether the mutation is in the seed coat--perhaps the normal colored seed coat is missing. When two white seeds are crossed and produce 100% TAN seeds it suggests two gene loci are needed to make TAN. If one gene locus makes TAN color and another locus makes the outer coat then a defective gene in either locus causes white seeds and crossing these two homozygous white seeds might produce 100% fruits containing white seeds. If the F1 is selfed one might expect 9:7 ratio, but result would depend upon dominance.

> If a good lineage AG seed doesn't cut it the first few > attempts we are quick to look elsewhere. Mainly because you put > in a great deal of work on a plant and its hard to risk that time > on a good cross that has let you down. But if the ratio is as tough as > it appears to hit a 700+ the 5-10 growers that do plant a certain cross > and miss seems like a drop in the bucket. But this is our practice > and very hard to overcome. Are we destined to only have these kind > of odds or how can we improve our bets....brock

I think the problem is that the plants take so much space that our slections are from too few individuals. If we could make AG commerial so we could afford whole fields of them, then we could select from more plants. I do not have any solutions at this point. The phenomen of some outstanding plants being great as germplasm and other outstanding plants being duds as gene sources is common in all crops. Selecting the largest ear of corn from a corncrib was somewhat successful, but selecting from the field from sibbed plants proved much better. It seems to me that choosing your seeds from the winners at a weighin is similar to the old low-success practice of picking the biggest ear of corn from a crib. -- Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiology and Genetics mailto:indbio@disknet.com Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk.htm

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ubject: RE: AG Genetics - Seed Color Date: 6 Apr 99 19:09:54 -0500 From: cmicha@chmc.org To: Indbio

Hello Dr. E, You are a welcome addition to the list and I've been enjoying your posts. As someone with a very rudimentary understanding of genetics and a desire to learn more so I can have a better idea of what I am doing and what I can expect from my adventures in growing AG pumpkins and hybridizing roses I am really looking forward to following what you do here. As for seed types, there are three that I have noted. Tan, tan with brown spots (this may have been an anomoly as I have only seen it once,) and white. Some of the white seeds are very shiny and others dull. White seeds are not as common as tan by a substantial percentage. Last year I grew two plants. One was from a pumpkin that came from a white seed and produced fruit that contained white seeds. The other was a tan seed that grew a plant that produced pumpkins that contained white seeds. Another difference is vine color. Some are green and some are yellow. In my limited experience they are about 50/50 but all vines start out green and some turn yellow as the plant gets a little bit larger. Stems can be very fat or slender and longer. Leaf stems can be short or long. Skin can be smooth or cantalouped to varying degrees. Color ranges from deep green to bright orange, with many shades from gray to pale cream in between. Some of these can appear on the same fruit. Last year I grew a plant that produce a pale cream and gray fruit that was ruled a squash at the weigh-offs. The skin was cantalouped and where that was scraped off on the gray areas the skin was green beneath it. Where that happened on the pale cream skin it was cream orange beneath. Some fruit are deeply ribbed and others can be have very little ribbing. Back to seeds. I do know that the female parent of the plant I grew from the tan seed was produced from a white seed. I do not know the color of the seed that produced the pollen parent. The tan seed was the 916 LaRue 97. This plant was produced by a (567.5 Mombert 92 X 697 Ciliberto 94), this seed has produced other smooth skinned bright orange fruit. I plan on planting it again this year and crossing it with the 769 Mettler 98 a white seed from a (697 Ciliberto 94 X 567.5 Mombert 92). Both the hierarchy trees and progeny trees for these seeds can be seen on Mike N's web page. Both the Ciliberto and Mombert pumpkins are know for producing a number of progeny that were far heavier than the parent pumpkin. Many of the Ciliberto offspring have thick walls and weigh heavy for their measurements. The Mombert offspring exhibit good color and a taller blocky profile although some have been long and lower. I suspect that some of the traits of AG's are more likely to be passed on from the pollen parent and others from the fruit parent. That is why I plan on crossing these two particular fruit. I know the 567.5 and 697 have been planted and crossed by a number of growers. The offspring of these crosses as far as I can determine have not approximated the success of either parent at producing large offspring. I'm hoping that by doing the cross I am planning that I will capture whatever element was missing in the single cross. Some people have told me I could get the same results by just growing the 916 LaRue 97 and self pollinating it but I don't think that is right. Are they right and am I completely off base in my thinking that to get the most of the genetics in this cross I need to cross pumpkins with the parents reversed, or is this going to be the best way for me to get the most potential out of a good cross? Is inbreeding a line this way done with any other plants you are familiar with? I am hoping to take the seeds from this seasons pumpkins and cross them next year with another mostly unrelated inbred line and I am hoping the results from that cross might demonstrate hybrid vigor. It's OK if you tell me I'm completely nuts and that I'm likely to only produce a weaker genetic strain from these experiments. It won't crush me and I'll go ahead with it anyway. But it would be nice to know I'm not completely of base in thinking that there may be certain genetic material you will only get from the paternal or maternal parent and the only way to get all of it is to do the inbreeding in this manner. Thanks for your time in reading and responding to this. If I can help you in your efforts let me know.

Chris Michalec Covington, WA > -----Original Message----- > From: Harold Eddleman Ph.D. [SMTP:] > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 4:09 PM > To: pumpkins@mallorn.com > Subject: AG Genetics - Seed Color > > Dear Fellow Growers > Some Atlantic Giant seeds are TAN (brown) color and some are WHITE. > Does anyone know whether the genetics of this color is known? It is not > given on the CGC Gene List. If not known, this may be a simple trait we > could pool our info and arrive at the inheritance. > We would try to determine whether it is a singe locus and whether > brown or white is dominant. Since all the seeds in a fruit are the same > color we will have to have the infor for many fruits. > During 1999 I plan to cross 750 McIntyre 1998 (white) X 690 Sproule > 1997 (TAN seeds). I will then hope to follow the seed color of the > following generations. > If white seeds are recessive then I know the McIntyre seed is t/t and > the Spoule seed is T/T or T/t. This is assuming these plants are diploid > and not polyploid. Thru the assistance of Mike N and Barb K, I have a > pedigree for both the seeds I will plant. > The Tan seed has the following ancestors. Can you tell me the color of > any of these seeds: > 941 Eaton 1996 > 1006 Greer 1996 > ------ > 663 Eaton 1995 > 887 Orr 1995 > 680 Dill 1994 > 697 Ciliberto 1994 > ----- > 910 Nelson 1994 UOW > 804 Zehr 1994 > 945.5 DeJong 1994 > 990 Bax 1994 > 792 Holland 1993 > 500.5 Dill 1989 > 502.5 Ciliberto 1991 > 722 Holland 1992 > ----- > 740 Holland 1993 > 827 Holland 1992 > 636 MacDonald 1993 > 755 Craven 1993 > 721.5 Eaton 1993 > 836 Craven 1993 > 721.5 Eaton 1993 > 511 Woodward 1993 > 827 Holland 1992 > 722 > > -- > Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com > Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky > http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk.htm > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@mallorn.com with the > message text UNSUBSCRIBE PUMPKINS

I think its a good idea to track the lesser known traits because with enough data, we might find a correlation between some of these traits and pumpkin weight. Here's an idea: why don't we make up some kind of sheet for the weigh off sites to give to each entry to fill out. These sheets would be filled out after the official weight recorded and would include the OTT measurments, parentage, number of fruit on the plant at harvest, approx. number of leaves, growing space, stem length, and seed color. Even the smaller ones would count because then we'd have a better idea of what percent of seeds from a pumpkin grow the giants. What other things could we use? Is this a good idea?

Andy Wolf

-----Original Message----- From: Harold Eddleman Ph.D. <indbio@disknet.com> To: pumpkins@mallorn.com <pumpkins@mallorn.com> Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 5:28 PM Subject: AG Genetics - Seed Color

Harold It has been my (limited) experience that MOST AG pumpkin seeds are tan. I can tell you that the Greer 1006 was tan. I have not seen the other seeds on your list so I can't say about them. A couple of years ago there was a big debate about white vs tan seeds and which one produced the bigger pumpkins! Up until this year I had never seen a white seed but I just got seeds from 2 differant pumpkins in the mail and they are both white. From the descriptions I have heard and the only 2 i've seen, I can tell you that the white seeds look like the immature seeds in a watermellon. They are very thin and the texture is ruff but they germinate. I didn't send this reply to the list because this subject produced a large amount of traffic last time and some was very opinionated. This seed color may be easiest part of the genitics to sort out.

cheers Bart Toftness

>From Harold Eddleman

Mike N., does your data base already contain info on simple traits seen in the parent for any of the AG fruits in your database?

If we decided to get serious about simple traits in AG we could develop a form to be completed by the cooperating grower of each AG plant. Corn and chicken breeders do that.

Dear Fellow AG Growers Some Atlantic Giant seeds are TAN (brown) color and some are WHITE. Does anyone know whether the genetics of this seed color is known? It is not given on the CGC Gene List. If not known, this may be a simple trait for which we could determine the genetics by pooling our info. We would try to determine whether it is a singe locus and whether brown or white is dominant. Since all the seeds in a fruit are the same color we will have to have the seed color for many fruits. Are all TAN seeds the same color or do different fruits have differing colors of TAN? During 1999 I plan to cross 750 McIntyre 1998 (white) X 690 Sproule 1997 (TAN seeds). I will then hope to follow the seed color of the following generations. I will follow all traits that I can identify. If white seeds are recessive then I know the McIntyre seed is t/t and the Spoule seed is T/T or T/t. This is assuming these plants are diploid and not polyploid. By courtesy of Mike N and Barb K, I have a pedigree for both of the seeds I will plant. The Tan seed has the ancestors shown below. Can you tell me the color of the seeds which were found inside any one or more of these fruits? If you know anything about the plant which grew one of these fruits, that could lead to discovering the genetics of other traits. For example, consider the plant which produced 941 Eaton 1997, it would be great to learn that plant had purple leaves, white flowers, no hairs on vines and leaves, no roots at the vine nodes, no lobes on leaves (entire margins), red stems on each fruit, no side (axillary) vines, the word DILL on the bottom side of every leaf, or anything else which might have a genetic basis. If there is enough interest, I will begin developing a form and display it on my website. If you want to cooperate in this genetic study you could print and complete the form for each plant you grow during 1999. It will take some time to develop such a form and the instructions for it. We would begin by you sending me an email listing the AG mutants (leaf colors, stem colors, etc) which you have seen. Knowing the inheritance of such traits might be useful to AG breeders. Sometimes genes affecting yield are on the same chromosome with a simple visible trait. Corn and chicken breeders use such traits in selecting parents for matings. Chemical assays can be used also. Chicken breeders use blood types and plant breeders use enzyme assays since about 1955. -------- What color seeds were found in each of these fruits? --the proband is: (proband means the initial plant in a genetic study) 690 Sproule 1997 -- had TAN seeds --parents of 690 Sproule 1997: (parents of proband) 941 Eaton 1996 1006 Greer 1996 --grandparents: 663 Eaton 1995 887 Orr 1995 680 Dill 1994 697 Ciliberto 1994 --g g 910 Nelson 1994 UOW 804 Zehr 1994 945.5 DeJong 1994 990 Bax 1994 792 Holland 1993 500.5 Dill 1989 502.5 Ciliberto 1991 722 Holland 1992 --ggg 740 Holland 1993 827 Holland 1992 636 MacDonald 1993 755 Craven 1993 721.5 Eaton 1993 836 Craven 1993 721.5 Eaton 1993 511 Woodward 1993 827 Holland 1992 722 Holland 1992 -- one plant unknown -- 575.5 Dill 1988 821 Stellpflug 1990* 530 Gancarz 1989 575.5 Dill 1988 742 Waterman-Fisher 1991

You may send the info you have on the color of any these seeds to my E-address below. I will keep you posted. I will display the incoming data on a web page which you can find via my index page URL below. I will begin the page when info comes in. If you have any other comments about the above seeds such as leaf color and shape, etc. I would like that info. -- Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk.htm

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Mr Eddleman-I know about the following.

In my guestimation less than 10% of Atlantic Giant seeds are white.

Hope others can contribute also to your study. Fascinating----Al Eaton

P.S.-I have phone numbers for many of the other growers on your list.Just give me the names you want. *************************** >What color seeds were found in each of these fruits? >--the proband is: (proband means the initial plant in a genetic study) >690 Sproule 1997 -- had TAN seeds >--parents of 690 Sproule 1997: (parents of proband) >941 Eaton 1996-------------------tan >1006 Greer 1996------------------tan >--grandparents: >663 Eaton 1995-------------------tan >887 Orr 1995---------------------tan >680 Dill 1994 >697 Ciliberto 1994 >--g g >910 Nelson 1994 UOW--------------tan >804 Zehr 1994--------------------tan >945.5 DeJong 1994----------------tan >990 Bax 1994---------------------tan >792 Holland 1993 >500.5 Dill 1989 >502.5 Ciliberto 1991 >722 Holland 1992 >--ggg >740 Holland 1993 >827 Holland 1992-----------------tan >636 MacDonald 1993 >755 Craven 1993 >721.5 Eaton 1993-----------------tan >836 Craven 1993 >721.5 Eaton 1993-----------------tan >511 Woodward 1993 >827 Holland 1992-----------------tan >722 Holland 1992 >-- one plant unknown -- >575.5 Dill 1988 >821 Stellpflug 1990* >530 Gancarz 1989 >575.5 Dill 1988 >742 Waterman-Fisher 1991

From Rock Rivard Fri 1999 April 9

Hi, As promised I searched my dbase and found a few interesting selfing/sibbing lines. Sorry for the length of this letter, but I prefered to send you this info all in one pack, so as to make sure I didn't forget anything. Here is what I found : * indicates a squash ---offsprings are not included in the progeny trees unless they are a direct result of selfing/sibbing (eg. the 697.0 Ciliberto 1994 has dozens of offspring, but only the 714.0 Haegens 1996 was selfed). ---if needed, we can try to find out if a particular seed was in fact selfed or sibbed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 963.0 Zehr 1995 x 963.0 Zehr 1995 | |--917.0 Zehr 1996 x 917.0 Zehr 1996 | |--554.0 Boor 1997 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 697.0 Ciliberto 1994 x 697.0 Ciliberto 1994 | |--714.0 Haegens 1996 x 714.0 Haegens 1996 | |--790.2 Haegens 1997 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 990.0 Bax 1994 x 990.0 Bax 1994 | |--490.0 Donkers 1995 x 490.0 Donkers 1995 | |--550.0 Vanhoutte 1997 |--763.0 Schlutt 1996 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 678.0 Pickets 1995 x 678.0 Picketts 1995 | |--588.0 Picketts 1996 x 588.0 Picketts 1996 | |--748.0 Picketts 1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 887.0 Orr 1995 x 887.0 Orr 1995 | |--591.0 Brock 1997 x 591.0 Brock 1997 | |--221.0 Veltman 1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 827.0 Holland 1992 x 827.0 Holland 1992 | |--836.0 Craven 1993 x self | |--716.0 Engberts 1994 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1006.0 Greer 1996 x 1006.0 Greer 1996 | |--977.0 Anderson 1997 x self | |--354.0 Needham 1998 UOW |--373.0 Needham 1998 UOW |--376.0 Nayler 1998 I don't know if the Needham pumpkins came from the same plant or from two seperate instances of 977.0 selfing. It is interesting to note the similarities in the results. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now here is the most interesting and extensive line of all. 674.5 Waterman 1990 x 674.5 Waterman 1990 | |--573.0 McCahill 1991 x 573.0 McCahill 1991 | |--724.0 Willemse 1993 x 724.0 Willemse 1993 | |--900.5 Lyons 1994* x 900.5 Lyons 1994* | |--566.0 McCallum 1996 x 566.0 McCallum 1996 | | | |--655.0 McCallum 1997* | |--692.0 McCallum 1997* | |--748.0 McCallum 1997 | |--742.0 MacKenzie 1996 A few remarks about this line: - Squash suddenly appears in 1994 and 1997 - I don't know if the McCallum fruit are from the same plant or not, but it is interesting to note that the 566.0 produced 2 squash and 1 pumpkin when selfed and this, from the same grower. - The 900.5 progeny (in my dbase) : 1995 = when crossed, 1 pumpkin (crossed with a pumpkin) 1996 = when selfed, 1 pumpkin and 1 squash (different growers) 1997 = when crossed, 3 squash (all from the same grower, crossed with a pumpkin) - Quite a few selfed lines seem to produce smaller pumpkins as they grow, but this one seems to be still going strong. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here is another line that may turn out to be very interesting when more info is gathered. 102.0 Wentzell 1992 x not specified | |--320.0 Wentzell 1993 x not specified | |--322.0 Wentzell 1994 x not specified | |--345.0 Wentzell 1995 x 345.0 Wentzell 1995 | |--701.0 Wentzell 1996 - In 1997 he crossed his 701.0 (used as pollinator) with the 941.0 Eaton 1996 and obtained a 782.0. (no info available on the progeny, if any, of the 782.0). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are a few things I spotted in the dbase while searching for selfed lines. - The 1010.0 MacKenzie 1998 has extensive selfing in the pollinator's line (grandma is the 900.5 Lyons 1994* = 4th generation of selfing) and two cases of selfing on the female's line (752.0 Craven 1994 and 827.0 Holland 1992). Lucky me I have a 1010.0 seed. - The present world record holder(1092.0 Burke 1998) is the direct result of selfing (935.0 Lloyd 1997). Interestingly the 935.0's mother is the result of selfing (687.0 Lloyd 1995) - The 968.0 Sproule 1998 (OSLG winner) is the result of selfing the 690.0 Sproule 1997. I also have this seed, and now I think I don't have much choice, I will probably self it. - I also have another seed that may prove to be interesting for selfing reasons. the 879.0 Rockwell 1998* is the result of the 815.0 Anderson 1997 x self. Because of the heavy squash heritage, I am not planting this seed this year. I would like to get a big pumpkin before trying out squash ;-) - I think I may try to set two pumpkins on my 133.0, one selfed and the other crossed. This may drastically reduce fruit size, but the genetics will be there. This may be a way of getting the best from both worlds. - I really can't say if this info proves/disproves anything, but it sure does raise a few questions and definetely makes for interesting reading. Enough for now, this letter is long enough and now we have lots of info to digest, and besides that, my typing fingers are killing me (both of them hahaha). Till next time... ******************************************************************** Rock jenaipas@netrover.com or AGgrower@hotmail.com " i souport publik edekasion ." ********************************************************************

Subject: Selfing AG's Date: 9 Apr 99 04:28:16 -0500 From: jenaipas@netrover.com To: Indbio

Hi,

As promised I searched my dbase and found a few interesting selfing/sibbing lines. Sorry for the length of this letter, but I prefered to send you this info all in one pack, so as to make sure I didn't forget anything. Here is what I found :

* indicates a squash

---offsprings are not included in the progeny trees unless they are a direct result of selfing/sibbing (eg. the 697.0 Ciliberto 1994 has dozens of offspring, but only the 714.0 Haegens 1996 was selfed).

---if needed, we can try to find out if a particular seed was in fact selfed or sibbed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 963.0 Zehr 1995 x 963.0 Zehr 1995 | |--917.0 Zehr 1996 x 917.0 Zehr 1996 | |--554.0 Boor 1997

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 697.0 Ciliberto 1994 x 697.0 Ciliberto 1994 | |--714.0 Haegens 1996 x 714.0 Haegens 1996 | |--790.2 Haegens 1997

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 990.0 Bax 1994 x 990.0 Bax 1994 | |--490.0 Donkers 1995 x 490.0 Donkers 1995 | |--550.0 Vanhoutte 1997 |--763.0 Schlutt 1996

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 678.0 Pickets 1995 x 678.0 Picketts 1995 | |--588.0 Picketts 1996 x 588.0 Picketts 1996 | |--748.0 Picketts 1998

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 887.0 Orr 1995 x 887.0 Orr 1995 | |--591.0 Brock 1997 x 591.0 Brock 1997 | |--221.0 Veltman 1998

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 827.0 Holland 1992 x 827.0 Holland 1992 | |--836.0 Craven 1993 x self | |--716.0 Engberts 1994

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1006.0 Greer 1996 x 1006.0 Greer 1996 | |--977.0 Anderson 1997 x self | |--354.0 Needham 1998 UOW |--373.0 Needham 1998 UOW |--376.0 Nayler 1998

I don't know if the Needham pumpkins came from the same plant or from two seperate instances of 977.0 selfing. It is interesting to note the similarities in the results.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now here is the most interesting and extensive line of all.

674.5 Waterman 1990 x 674.5 Waterman 1990 | |--573.0 McCahill 1991 x 573.0 McCahill 1991 | |--724.0 Willemse 1993 x 724.0 Willemse 1993 | |--900.5 Lyons 1994* x 900.5 Lyons 1994* | |--566.0 McCallum 1996 x 566.0 McCallum 1996 | | | |--655.0 McCallum 1997* | |--692.0 McCallum 1997* | |--748.0 McCallum 1997 | |--742.0 MacKenzie 1996

A few remarks about this line: - Squash suddenly appears in 1994 and 1997 - I don't know if the McCallum fruit are from the same plant or not, but it is interesting to note that the 566.0 produced 2 squash and 1 pumpkin when selfed and this, from the same grower. - The 900.5 progeny (in my dbase) : 1995 = when crossed, 1 pumpkin (crossed with a pumpkin) 1996 = when selfed, 1 pumpkin and 1 squash (different growers) 1997 = when crossed, 3 squash (all from the same grower, crossed with a pumpkin) - Quite a few selfed lines seem to produce smaller pumpkins as they grow, but this one seems to be still going strong.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Here is another line that may turn out to be very interesting when more info is gathered.

102.0 Wentzell 1992 x not specified | |--320.0 Wentzell 1993 x not specified | |--322.0 Wentzell 1994 x not specified | |--345.0 Wentzell 1995 x 345.0 Wentzell 1995 | |--701.0 Wentzell 1996

- In 1997 he crossed his 701.0 (used as pollinator) with the 941.0 Eaton 1996 and obtained a 782.0. (no info available on the progeny, if any, of the 782.0).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are a few things I spotted in the dbase while searching for selfed lines.

- The 1010.0 MacKenzie 1998 has extensive selfing in the pollinator's line (grandma is the 900.5 Lyons 1994* = 4th generation of selfing) and two cases of selfing on the female's line (752.0 Craven 1994 and 827.0 Holland 1992). Lucky me I have a 1010.0 seed.

- The present world record holder(1092.0 Burke 1998) is the direct result of selfing (935.0 Lloyd 1997). Interestingly the 935.0's mother is the result of selfing (687.0 Lloyd 1995)

- The 968.0 Sproule 1998 (OSLG winner) is the result of selfing the 690.0 Sproule 1997. I also have this seed, and now I think I don't have much choice, I will probably self it.

- I also have another seed that may prove to be interesting for selfing reasons. the 879.0 Rockwell 1998* is the result of the 815.0 Anderson 1997 x self. Because of the heavy squash heritage, I am not planting this seed this year. I would like to get a big pumpkin before trying out squash ;-)

- I think I may try to set two pumpkins on my 133.0, one selfed and the other crossed. This may drastically reduce fruit size, but the genetics will be there. This may be a way of getting the best from both worlds.

- I really can't say if this info proves/disproves anything, but it sure does raise a few questions and definetely makes for interesting reading.

Enough for now, this letter is long enough and now we have lots of info to digest, and besides that, my typing fingers are killing me (both of them hahaha).

Till next time... ******************************************************************** Rock

jenaipas@netrover.com or AGgrower@hotmail.com

" i souport publik edekasion ."

********************************************************************