Giant pumpkins must have orange skin color to compete as pumpkins.
Pumpkin growers still have problems of disappointing colors appearing on their pumpkins. This page is devoted to displaying and trying to interpret the inheritance of skin color and other mutants found in the fruit of Atlantic Giant pumpkins. Please send any data which you think may be useful. These are the only data I have so far.
bl = Recessive = blue fruit color = semi recessive to green fruit color. Blue squashes owe their color to this allele. Some cultivars are Blue Hubbard, Blue
D = dominant = dark green stem color of fruit
Hi = Hard rind inhibitor
Hr = Hard rind in C. pepo
l = light fruit color in C. pepo
Rd = dominant = Red skin color of fruit; dominant to green, white, yellow, gray
St = stripped fruit lengthwise in C. pepo
I-mc = dominant = inhibits mature fruit color. I am not sure what color results, white perhaps.
to be continued
cantalouping
Some useful pedigrees supplied by Pumpkins members. Please send more.
Hi Harold,
Just got a letter from Harry Willemse with additional info for his lineage.
Changes are in bold type.
674.5 Waterman 1990 x self
nearly white fruit
|
|--573.0 McCahill 1991 x self
nearly white fruit
|
|--724.0
Willemse 1993 x self bright orange, almost
red fruit
---Eddleman comments: While we do not know the genes involved, the red fruit appeared because a recessive gene(s) has become homozygous or a dominant gene(s) was lost. [This is still somewhat speculative, someday we will know for sure.] A red gene is known in C. maxima, its symbol is Rd and it is dominant to green, white, yellow gray--see CGC gene list. We do not know whether this pedigree contains the Rd allele.
---- Rivard continues:
I asked him about the fruit colors because of the squash a bit further down in his lineage and this is what he says:
Harry Willemse wrote:
I have had experience with this before. In 1987 I
got seed from Harry Hurly which I grew in a rough field. The largest pumpkin
weighed only 150 that year but I kept the seeds.The following year I grew
a 403 from that seed which I pollinated back to itself. Out of that seed
I grew a 481 squash and a 461 pumpkin which were both weighed off at Port
Elgin The squash was #1 and the pumpkin was 3rd in 1990. The
403 was also dark orange, and the squash was a solid dark green.There appears
to be a genetic reason for this. In both instances after 3 years of self
pollination squash appeared where there was no squash grown in the area.
I grew 20 to 25 plants both times this happened and the second year approx
10% were squash and the 3rd year approx 50% were squash.
--end of Willemse letter
" Any thoughts? Till next time... Rock Rivard jenaipas@netrover.com
Yes, if we had these lines and selfed some more we would have lines we could use for test matings. These are the kinds of lines we are looking for. --Harold Eddleman.
Harold put this here it may not belong here
Subject: Wentzell lineage Date: 13 Apr 99 22:41:04 -0500 From: jenaipas@netrover.com To: Indbio
Hi Harold,
Got a return letter from Roger Wentzell. Unfortunately, his lineage is not as selfed as I thought it may be at first. Here are the changes that need to be made to the lineage :
The 102.0 was obtained by a selfed seed bought from Vesey Seeds Ltd.
The 320.0 was obtained by selfing the 102.0
The 322.0 was obtained by sibbing (is this the proper way to say this) the 320.0
The 345.0 was obtained by crossing the 322.0 with a 609 Whynot 1994
The 701.0 was obtained by selfing the 345.0
Roger thinks that his pumpkins got bigger because of improvements made to his soil over the years and that his 701.0 is linked to the cross made with the 609.0 .
Till next time...
Rock jenaipas@netrover.com
[genetics] Pumpkin Skin Color (genetics@onelist.com, 04/11/99 22:53) To: Indbio
From: "Harold Eddleman Ph.D." <indbio@disknet.com>
jenaipas@netrover.com wrote: > > Hi Harold, > > Just got a letter from Harry Willemse with additional info for his lineage. > > Changes are in bold type. > > 674.5 Waterman 1990 x self nearly white fruit > | > |--573.0 McCahill 1991 x self nearly white fruit > | > |--724.0 Willemse 1993 x self bright orange, almost red fruit > | > the rest I snipped. > > I asked him about the fruit colors because of the squash a bit further down in his lineage and this is what he says: > > > > Any thoughts? > > Till next time... > > Rock jenaipas@netrover.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Name: FILE.HTM > Part 1.2 Type: Hypertext Markup Language (text/html) > Encoding: base64
Dear Rock and Genetics@onelist.com Thanks for this info. I do not know whether the bold face will survive thru the onelist server. I just remembered most servers do not what HTML code in messages. We will see if I survive. Rock, I think we should start a skin color page. Scott Armstrong sent me some very similar info and has sent me some seeds. One keeps hearing of squash cropping up in lines. This was really the problem that I wanted to tackle as my first genetics project, but did not know enough until Rock and Scott sent me some beginning info. I plan to start a page on my site and will announce it on genetics. Rock, I have 2 years experience copying e-mail to web pages. Some times the format survives and mostly it does not. You may be aware that when I copy your pedigrees all the pretty lineages disappear. For an example of this problem go to shared files section of our onelist site and look at selfed1.htm. Rock, my computer it typing better now. Suddenly the churning of the drives stopped and the problem ended. I did not do a reboot. Due to problems, I have not uploaded anything for a week. The main problem is that I have too many pages in progress. On skin color. Everyone please send me any info they know about on skin color. I already know the CGC gene list. Someday I will get all that sort of background stuff on my pk.htm site or in our shared files. Is everyone able to read our shared files? -- Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk.htm
[genetics] Pumpkin skin color II (genetics@onelist.com, 04/11/99 23:55) To: Indbio
From: "Harold Eddleman Ph.D." <indbio@disknet.com>
Dear List Perhaps, I should look at the CGC list before writing this, but I only intend to talk about possibilities here. If a trait is governed by a single locus (gene), then one expects to see 3:1 ratio in the F2. In pumpkin work, we are not beginning with homozygous parents and we may not be seeing all the phenotypes in the progeny. Consider the skin color data Rock sent tonite. Recall it began with almost white. If that plant was Ww and selfed then we expect the progeny to be 1 WW : 2 Ww : 1 ww. Perhaps ww is Orange but he only planted one seed it must have been Ww which he selfed. Anyway he finally planted ww and got an orange fruit. I am puzzled because I expect color to always be dominant.
However, we could have a color inhibitor, and I recall seeing one in the CGC genelist. I have worked with such a gene in corn. We now have 4 members does everyone understand 3:1, 1:1, and 9:3:3:1 ratios which your biology teacher should have covered? Some day I will get those all explained. -- Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com Location: Palmyra IN USA; 36 kilometers west of Louisville, Kentucky http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk.htm
genetics@onelist.com wrote: > > When I started 50% of the plants I grew had green fruit. I have culled > them out and seem to have a clean strain. Each yr I treat the seeds and > then self pollinate. Roger >
Re: Notification of subscription to genetics (rado1000@hotmail.com, 04/13/99 14:25) To: Indbio
> Please send any mail you like to the list. What are your main >genetics interests? > This summer I hope to be working with seed color, flesh color, skin >color, seedling traits in Atlantic Giant
Hi Harold,
I've been enjoying your contributions to Mallorn's PUMPKINS & thought I would tag along here. I don't know that I can contribute much, but it surely is interesting to read. Last year my AG was pale orange. It was pretty, but I would have been happier with a traditional, bright orange pumpkin. And I'm terrified of growing a squash. I would love a world record, but I'd rather have a small pumpkin than a large squash!
I probably won't post too much... I'm skittish about posting to a public place, since I do this from work. But I promise I will be enjoying the discussions. (And if you ever want to cut-and-paste and forward snippets to the list, that's fine!)
One note about skin color, after the first *official* post I received: Wayne has said that if a young fruit is yellow, it will mature into some shade of orange, but if the young fruit is green, then green it will stay.
Glad to be along for the ride!
Beth Rado
[genetics] Scott sent this (genetics@onelist.com, 04/13/99 15:15) To: Indbio
From: "Harold Eddleman Ph.D." <indbio@disknet.com>
Dear List and Roger
Scott has not yet been able to join Genetics. I am forwarding his letter of today.
Subject: Re: Pumpkin Skin Color II Date: 13 Apr 99 16:37:50 -0500 From: Scott_Armstrong@LNOTES5.bankofny.com To: Indbio
Dr. Eddleman, Glad to hear that "my children" arrived safely. 66 isn't that old!! I plan on growing pumpkins till i'm at least 96!!! Please send me the email regarding joining the list. that would be fantastic. As far as skin color goes, that's going to be a tough one. I've seen alot of variation at contests. Also, there are some that have cantelouped skin and non cantelouped skin. I've seen beige ones, really orange shiney ones, light orange dull ones, and so on and so forth. ARe there different genes, or loci, relating to skin texture as well as color? Or are they one in the same? How is this related to ribs on a pumpkin? My 301 was pretty smooth, but the 680+ had very deep wide ribs. I've seen some pumpkins that had some green, or even gray in them. I've also seen some white patches mixed in with green and orange. I know that somewhere in the line giant squash are sometimes entered into the mix. Did you ever call Howard Dill? He might really be able to help out as far as the crossing aspect goes. he knows what's in the mix so to speak. It is true that the amount of seeds is generally the same when it's small to when it's large, But, the color can vary dramatically. Both of my pumpkins started out a pale yellow, one turned peach, the other turned bright orange. They both started out smooth, one developed ribs, the other, barely. I guess i should probably send you some photos of my puumpkins, perhaps i'll do just that. I can send pictures of when it was young, and then when it was mature. I guess a picture would be worth way more than my 1000 words. My big one didn't start to turn color until pretty late in the season, the 301 turned orange early. Some people believe that when the fruit turns orange, it stops growing shortly. Some people also believe that the more sun light a fruit gets the more orange it ends up. My 680+ had a shade structure over it, my 301 did not.
Scott
AG Skin & Flesh Color (pumpkins@mallorn.com, 04/13/99 16:47) To: Indbio
During 1999, my main interest is working with Mendelian traits in AG. I hope to concentrate mainly on these:
Skin color (external color) flesh color seed color squash vs pumpkin (which is a combination of the above??) seedling and vine traits (color, hairs, glands, leaf shape, etc)
I have limited space. Roger, others, and my own experience suggest I can study some of these using pots for roots so vine size is limited. My main interest is the question of squash vs pumpkin. I welcome your mail on the difference! Three of you have already sent me some data from selfed plants. In one instance after extensive selfing of light skinned fruit, Orange appeared and then later squash appeared, seemingly from no where. What is the ploidy of AG? Many crops are 2N (they get one chromosome from Mom and one from Dad). Sometimes by accident in nature, 4n plants arise. Such plants commonly have larger fruit, doubled blossoms, bigger stems and the genetics is more difficult. Here are examples: Example 1: Given a selfed fruit on a diploid (2N) plant which is Aa where A is dominant and normal color and a is albino (white) (no chlorophyll) (lethal; it dies because it can't make food). The seeds in this selfed fruit will have this genotypic ratio 1 AA : 2 Aa : 1 aa (that last plant will die). So 3/4 of the plants will be normal phenotype (normal green) and 1/4 will be white and die. Example 2: Given the same thing in a 4N (tetraploid), when we self a A/a;A/a flower, the seeds in the fruit have 9:3:3:1 ratio and only one plant will die out of 16. 1/16th die. If you have ever tried to fill a Punnett Square for Squash vs Pumpkin, then you easily realize that if AG is tetraploid then it is harder to get lines of AG which are free of Squash. Usually heterozygotes are healthier and bigger. Thus, as we select for size we will also be selecting for squash IF SQUASH TRAITS AID SIZE. If you want to learn more, my site will teach such things when it is done in a couple years. I get a few pages started each week. I hope everyone can help me plan my 1999 work by sending me examples from your experience and perhaps offer seeds of possible mutants. I know some of you have worked on these problems for many years. I do not expect to make any great progress myself, but we might find something useful after we pool our observations. Rock Rivard sent some nice selfed pedigree data last night and I am using that in a web page on fruit color. I hope to install the fruit color page this week and will announce it here on Pumpkins list. If you have looked at the CGC gene lists (some years old) you may have notices these mutants of C. maxima.
bl blue fruit; semi-recessive to green Hi hard rind inhibitor; [might reduce cracking??] lo lobed leaves; recessive Rd red skin color (what is this, I have never see a red pumpkin!) St stripes run length of fruit. v light green young leaves - not lethal - ??might limit plant size?? ys yellow seeding (no chlorophyll) plant dies. I-mc inhibits mature fruit color
In corn we have 5 genes that are required for purple seed color plus modifiers of these. Pumpkin color may be just as complex.
We have 5 hard-working members in our Genetics@onelist.com group; please join us. Just click here http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/genetics then drop the list if you do not want it. Once you become a member, you will have a nice personal page which lets you set "NO MAIL" with one click. -- Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiologist. mailto:indbio@disknet.com Location: Palmyra IN
Fwd: AG Skin & Flesh Color (COMPUTRESE@aol.com, 04/13/99 20:43) To: Indbio
Harold:
Forgive my absence on these subjects but personal problems in the patch have me a bit harried. Virus took my lovliest plant, now it's claiming the other. I have three plants left.
I wish I could prune off virus growth and have the plant return to it's pre-viral state.
Of course, I am sick over this.
To answer your question on red pumpkins, yes, there are red pumpkins. I grew some last year. This variety is called "Rouge Vif D'Etampes", or Cinderella pumpkins. The interesting thing about these is, the skin is thick, dark red like a turban squash, and very dense, dark flesh ideal for baking and eating. The shape is an interesting flat cheese-wheel shaped fruit, round and 16-18 inches diameter. Their stems are very long to accommodate the growing fruit. I have several photos of the Rouge Vif that I grew last year.
They are very prolific, and vine everywhere. Very lovely plants to grow. I recommend them highly.
Another trait we AG growers look for is a plant that produces female blooms with 6 or more "lobes" on the stigma. Also, squash are no surprise. If the baby pumpkin beneath the female flower is green, that's a squash; yellow is a pumpkin.
I have found that growers who have squash report tougher skin, thicker walls and overall happiness with the outcome.
These fruit look just like a lerge green pumpkin. Greens are varying shades of green like a dark green hubbard, to a lighter gray/green.
I'll close now. Very sad about this virus. Wondering if the little lizards that invade my patch carry it.
Barb
Kuhn/Cole pictures (pumpkins@mallorn.com, 04/14/99 07:50) To: Indbio
HI, Both the 929.4 Kuhn '97and the 920 Cole '98 were very dark orange beautiful pumpkins . Kuhn was high inthe shoulder but thin in the blossom end. the Cole more round shaped . I have posted there pictures at this address. www.geocities.com/heartland/cottage/8717/kuhncole.html I am going to plant the 906.5 Lloyd , and possibly the 920 Cole ,myself. Good Growing PF
Re: Brown Seeds (COMPUTRESE@aol.com, 04/14/99 08:43) To: Indbio
Harold:
Sorry for the inadvertent send on that message. I am on my laptop and the keys are different. Hit the wrong key and voila! Send!
Anyway, to finish my thought, is it true that once a virus gets into a plant, it corrupts everything from that point forward? Would it be best to pull it now, to limit risk of spreading? Or, would I be able to prune off the offending runner and hope for the best? I think I know the answer, there is no hope. Virus means doomsday.
I do have three other seemingly healthy plants, all growing a great distance from this plant. Help, if you can. I appreciate all suggestions.
Thanks.
Barb PS....I have more to say on white color. Last year, one of my friends grew a seed from one of Al Eaton's plants, and ended up with a white pumpkin, yes, really white. Not the least little bit of blush color. Not green, and not gray. In fact, it was shaped like a giant garlic. The fruit was quite large, too. I don't know if he saved any seeds from it, but I can ask.
If you need Rouge Vif D''Etampes seeds, just say the word.
RE: AG Skin & Flesh Color (pumpkins@mallorn.com, 04/14/99 16:34) To: Indbio
"Rd red skin color (what is this, I have never see a red pumpkin!)"
I have and I purchased two last fall as I was going to harvest the seed and try to get a red line going. Now these were suppose to be Cinderella pumpkins about 2-8 pounds but when I asked the grower what it was he just said it was a freak. He grows about 5000 pumpkins for sale in the fall. So out of his let's say 1000 Cinderella pumpkins he gets 2 red skinned pumpkins as freaks. Now the interesting thing was that when I cut er open to harvest the seed I found a hollow cavity with one misshapen seed inside. I suppose I should have expected this but at the time I didn't. So Yes there are Red skinned pumpkins but not AG's so far -to my knowledge.
Bob.
Date/Time (timpat@bhip.infi.net, 04/17/99 08:14) To: Indbio
Hi Harold... enjoy your comments to the pumpkin group.. I've noticed -- or it seems.. the date on your emails is a few days off.. which mades it hard to track the subjects in email discussion..thought you might check this..
Also.. I had a question or observation... that the fruit color of AG's seems to be more enhanced thru the male cross side... which can (sometimes) be seen in the next generation... I've talked to some growers about this --- and it seems to be the case.. but not always... but maybe most of the time... its really hard to guarenteed results with these AG's....
I'm growing in Florida... had a 459 in 96 -- very nice orange fruit.... later that year a grower in Canada grew the same seed -- and had a fruit that qualified as a squash (green or mostly green) -- I found this odd --- but have learned it can and does happen... since then I've tried to be learn/obtain seeds that I would think would give good colored fruit.... trouble is -- I've had trouble just growing anything... (been having disease trouble last couple years) -- anyway... this year seems more promising.. I have a few fruit set right now (within the last ten days) --- I'm hopeful for a 4-500 --- but long way to go...
Anyway Harold.... I just thought I'd mention this to you... see if you had any comments... or maybe its just something to keep in mind..
Thanks... Tim
[genetics] Does Selfing Work? (genetics@onelist.com, 04/17/99 11:11) To: Indbio
From: "Harold Eddleman Ph.D." <indbio@disknet.com>
I forgot to answer Rock's question: Has "pure" selfing produced positive results in any other type of plant?
Eddleman's answer. I don't know. I do think I may be wrong about selfing in AG. My experiences in selfing corn have been basically 100% bad. I now think corn may be a special case. Still, selfing was very important in my corn work. Perhaps I got weak plants with no pollen, but selfing is the easy way to get a line homozygous for some trait of interest. Once I had two feeble lines pure for the same trait, I could cross them and the hybrid was srong (unless the trait was a semi lethal trait). I could then sib to maintain the line. Example: I plant the hybrid which is pure for the desired train in short row. I then pooled pollen from some of the best plants in the row and used it on the best plants in the row. Conclusion: Even when selfing leads to weak plants it has value. For example if one seeks orange fruit in AG. He can develop two lines that produce pure orange fruit and cross them to get vigorous pure orange and never any problem with squash. Caution: The above might not work. Squash vs pumpkin might [probably does, I am guessing] involve many genes. In that case, crossing the two orange inbred lines might big bring a bad combination together and produce squash. SEEDS WANTED: I welcome any seeds (e-mail me first) and observations which will enable breeding experiments to work out the genetics of squash vs pumpkin. Since Roger seems to have a pure pumpkin line(s). It will would be interesting to cross it with other "pure" pumpkin lines if any exist to see if one gets freedom from squash.
-- Harold Eddleman